It's time for another installment of The View from the Bottom, the vlog about gay male health and sexuality as told from the perspective of three bottomless bottoms. This week, Trevor, Rostom, and Maxime discuss what they got for Christmas, how to deal with online harassment, what condoms are best for bottoms, and Pat Robertson' repugnant comments about Haiti.
So late last night I got an entirely predictabe, grumpy and sissyphobic message on Manhunt. It happens, whatever. But I thought I would share the exchange here to help illustrate the kinds of battles femme queers like me and countless others are forced to engage in regularly on these sites and of course offline. Here's his first shot:
Congrats! You Def lived up to your Stereotype---Good for You!
1. Amazibg profile ---
A. Almost thought you were a thoughtful--insig sightl-intelligen t guy,
B. than the "USUAL Low Life GAY Persoanlty" shows it self
C. What all GAY GUYS LIVE FOR "A thick-dicked, confident & caring top is my ideal"
2. My study of you guys is SHALLOW---SUPERFICIAL- --LOOSE---RISKY----SEL F INVOLVED--IMMATURE---CARES ABOUT NOTHING---NO ONE-- BUT YOURSELVES AND GETTING
YOUR ROCKS OFF!
3. EVERY Wonder Why You ASSHOLES get STEREOTYPED---"YOU STEREOTYPE--YOURSELVES!
4. IF you guys ACTED LIKE A NORMAL GUY-------I MIGHT ACTUALLY FUCK ONE OF YOU FUCKWADS!
I've heard this tripe before. His profile describes him as a "divorced bi" guy into "normal guys." I long ago decided not to engage with these kinds of creeps, but I was feeling a bit fiesty, so I wrote back:
My dear, you sound a bit bitter!
xoxo
Trevor
I thought a simple parting shot like that would illustrate that I was not perturbed and that he was pathetic. Whatever, bad idea I know -- so bad in fact that this morning I woke up to this message from him. Item #1 is, I think, unintentionally one of the funniest things I've read in months.
"My Dear" See again there you Prove the GAY STEREOTYPE!
1. My names Trevor, I'm Gay, Fuckin Femm-Limp Wristed Fag, Lost my Balls!!
3. See whats HOT is SEX with a MASCULINE GUY!
4. WHY Would I FUCK Some FAG WHO ACTS LIKE A WOMAN, I'D RATHER FUCK A WOMAN.
5.SO WHAT HAPPENS TREV?? WHEN YOU TURN GAY:-Do YOU "LOSE YOUR BALLS!!!!!
6. BTW---DEAR-----IF YOU WANNA ACT LIKE A WOMAN OR LIMP WRISTED FAG--GET A SEX CHANGE!
I don't usually "out" people like this. But this is just so many levels of wrong. His screenname on Manhunt is BIJOCK09. If you think he's a jerk as I do, tell him so!
Manhunt's blog, "Manhunt Daily," was kind enough to post the latest "View From the Bottom" and one of the tips that came out of that episode: Listerine Strips are wonderful accessories to a good rimjob. There's a new marketing strategy, guys! LOL.
And just quickly, to pretend for a moment to be serious, there was an interesting comment in the comments on that entry that I wanted to highlight. Criticizing any attempt to "cover up" the "real" taste of ass, Gary says:
So come on guys pony up...you all say you want to be with and fuck men...then fuck men, not trimmed, shaved, waxed, perfumed, pepperminted versions of a man...
I get the desire to attach value to bodies that aren't conforming to certain standards of mordern hygiene. I think that's A-okay! The problem for me comes in the second half of that statement, in which he DEvalues guys who are shaven, perfurmed, etc. This is precisely the kind of tendency I notice in bear culture and other gay men's subcultures that fantasize about some kind of "naturalized" masculinity. Rather than simply saying, "Hey we have a different version of hot," they have to tack on "And your version of hot is feminine, pathetic, and fake." Basically on their way to creating new forms of hotness they reinscribe stigma against femme guys (and other men who value being clean-shaven, etc). Do what you want, guys -- but c'mon, your version of hot is not somehow better than my version of hot.
All Hail to the Queen
The fags bash the bulbs to make the starts brighter
All peace to the Earth
As orbs of white light moat Emerald Island
2,000 years ago a young woman appeared in the shape of a white buffalo and gave a family a sacred pipe and made them guardians of the Black Hills. Before leaving, she prophesized that one day she would return to purify the world, bringing back spiritual balance and harmony. The birth of a white buffalo calf would be a sign that her return was at hand.
In 1994 a white buffalo was born in Wisconsin. In many communities there is an aboriginal renaissance occurring, a return to the land is manifesting.
In 1998 Dry Bones Breathe: Gay Men Creating Post AIDS Identities and Cultures was published. Writer Eric Rofes put forward the idea that the AIDS-As-Crisis-Model was long outdated and a new era of focusing on gay men's wellness had arrived.
Its now 2009, 200and mine and I wander the urban Canadian terrain for white buffalo tracks and modern gay male culture.
A pull back-A pull forward,
A pull within-A look outside.
Dry Bones Breathe
Gay men break backs
First Nation women get ignored
The land heaves and sighs.
PAUSE.
I got my panties in a knot a few months ago when I started visiting gay guy social networking sites like MANHUNT and DUDESNUDE. At first I was just jealous of all the lovely bodies that will never be mine, that I will never have.
Here they all are,
stretched,
flexed
out
aching to be clicked,
hooked,
favorited,
chatted and
poked.
I found myself heavy and full with minor outrage.
THE GAUL- WHERE DO THESE GUYS GET OFF?
But then I got over myself and I meant it...
Where do these boys get off?
Where is public sex?
Do these dudes nude know that their flesh is for the viral masses (if so GREAT)
Or do websites create a sense of enclosed space so they think that they are in some version of inside?
I had up into that point never seen a cock just hanging out for all to see
so sexually,
so publicly,
so in the realm for of all.
But there one was, attached to a barista I kind of knew, but now knew better. Tomorrow when I order my coffee I wondered, Would I feel a new intimacy with him? I kept clicking- there was his cock rock hard, there was him smiling with his arm draped around a friend (did she know that she was on this website?), there was his cock again.
With every image I saw I was getting to now him better. I knew what his bedroom looked like, that he had gone to Paris (and taken a dirty photo in the Louvre's washroom) and that he was uncut. Is this now how gay community is formed? Is this the new 70's? (if so great [?])
Last summer I was accepted to do a video curatorial residency in which I would use the moving image to explore how sites like MANHUNT and DUDES NUDE were changing the sexual landscape for gay men.
I had it on my mind that in the face of AIDS, in the face of the internet
sex had not only gone underground, it had gone post-ground and now cruising existed only in the ether.
I was wrong.
The beauty of me is my ability to be wrong, my ability as a vegetarian to eat bacon and crow.
Sitting after dark in Toronto's Queen Park I befriended a man who had been cruising this park all his life. The year that Rock Hudson died of AIDS, he decided to come out. It has made him, if he does say so himself, an expert at giving blowjobs.
He tells me how he calls this park Emerald Island- cause it is- basically we are sitting in a large traffic circle in the middle of a city, permitered by trees, our feet thick in luscious grass and roots aching to come up.
Every few years he tells me the city tries to make the park less welcoming by taking down trees or adding more lights. He laughs and says it doesn't matter- the fags just bash the bulbs to make the starts brighter.
Sitting there frustrated by the lack of play, the willy-nilly fear of men to man up and hook up we start talking. Darting hungry eyes shoot us dirty looks. "WHAT?" I say with my mouth and shoulder, its not like you are doing anything.
We watch for a while as the little guy who wants to be the big guy circles the big guy who wants to get with the little guy.
It is as boring as shit but counts for action tonight.
Finally against a tree, the big guy lets go (did I mention he is on roller blades), the little guy wins and a crowd gathers to watch, stare and play.
The beauty of dry bones breathing is tempered only by the fact that parks such as this still echo all that is hurt inside of gay bones.
Not only is this place a hunt for the great white cock, leaving brown, yellow red cocks dangling in the wind- there is no room for dudes without cocks or cocks without dudes.
Desires are still so repressed that getting laid under the stars, white buffalos winking from the road, is still a revolutionary act. And there is no room for openness, no room for further transgression. We have done our part by coming out they seem to say.
Before I ever went to cruising park I romanced the idea that in such places you fucked what was there. That beauty became relative and a bell curve of hotness was recreated every time someone came or left.
And this is true.
And this is not true.
Our culturally informed idea of beauty still permeates past the trees.
Old guys walk around with nary a wink,
Fat guys sit dejected, staying in the background instead of being rejected.
White buffalo breath revives dry bones.
But animals we are not.
But just spirits we are not.
But online profiles we are not.
But post-AIDS we are not.
Take off your shoes, your socks, your shirt and your pants.
Walk barefoot on the land. Naked.
Find a place to lie down in the grass.
Press your sex to the ground and feel the flex flux of 6 billion souls.
Get off
Get up
Keep going.
White buffalo breath revives dry bones.
Fucking strangers revives faith in humanity.
Being outside reminds you that you are human.
Take off your shoes, your socks, your shirt and your pants.
Walk barefoot on the land. Naked.
Find a place to lie down in the grass.
Press your sex to the ground and feel the flex flux of 6 billion souls.
Get off
Get up
Keep going.
Take off your shoes, your socks, your shirt and your pants.
Walk barefoot on the land. Naked.
Find a place to lie down in the grass.
Press your sex to the ground and feel the flex flux of 6 billion souls.
Get off
Get up
Keep going.
Sept 2009 Ted Kerr
Ted Kerr is a Canadian based writer, artist and actionist whose work primarily focuses on queerness, HIV / AIDS and expression. Find more about him on his website.
A few months ago, on the recommendation of a friend, I created an account on the dating website okcupid. It offers some cool features not available on other social networking and hookup websites. For example, in addition to writing an autobiographical profile, okcupid users also answer an array of multiple choice personality questions. The cupid "robot" in turn suggests possible matches based on these responses.
The website has, on the whole, been unfulfilling for me since I created my profile in July. I think this is because okcupid's personality test questions don't care enough about my sex life. What I like about Manhunt is that it lets users advertise nearly any erotic proclivity through a list of check boxes (my favorites, of course, being "dad/son" and "nipple play"). These preferences then become search terms through which users can find each other.
It's difficult to overstate how nice it is to have a space online in which I can connect with people who want the same things as me. Because my sexual desires tend to be marginalized in most other social spaces, when I go online, I want to be able to include these as a primary component of my self-presentation. And okcupid just isn't reactive enough to this part of my personality. If it were, it would stop trying to make me a match with twinks in their twenties.
The website is probably a great resource for people to find each other in non-sexual ways. But at bottom (haha), it's a dating website! Okcupid needs to develop a greater sensitivity to erotic diversity, and incorporate this into its quiz questions, in order to serve in a meaningful way users who are interested in sexual pleasure.
As a followup to Trevor's post on the recent update of the previously paleozoic Manhunt interface, the site has added some new search terms besides dick length and girth. These include Married Men, and my favorite, Dad/Son. Thank goodness for these preferences to help narrow down my search. The sheer volume of men online in Philadelphia is seriously overwhelming me!
For many years now, Manhunt has been one of the fastest growing and most widely used gay hookup sites. It's relatively easy to use interface and profile-based cruising system appealed to folks tired of the endless chit-chat offered by the former giant Gay.com. Manhunt's profiles allowed users to instantly search based on any number of profile attributes to whittle down a huge city of gays like San Francisco to a pool of 21-to-23 year old white bottoms who are into Pig Play. Database magic.
But the Manhunt system hasn't kept up with the times. For years its interface remained the same, while the Internet around it zoomed into the 21st century. Adam4Adam appeared a few years ago as a free alternative to Manhunt, which costs upwards of $10 / month. It was an easy, aging target. Users immediately began to be siphoned off to the economically sound A4A, while Manhunt continued to rely on elderly technology.
But yesterday Manhunt stepped up to the plate -- finally -- and overhauled their web interface. Size queens, come hither: I bring tidings of great news! With Manhunt's overhaul came the ability for users to add to their profile dick size -- which will allow queens everywhere to instantly pull up a list of the most well endowed users in a given area. But MH has one-upped A4A by not just adding length to their profiles, but also GIRTH! And as so many bottoms know, girth is what *really* matters in the end. Thank you, Manhunt. The back of gay throats across the Globe will surely be grateful!
I was perusing my Google Analytics, when I noticed a few hits from a post over at The Sword that responded to my criticism of their research on Craigslist ads. They accused me of having an "ugly haircut". But I digress. That new post at The Sword linked to Manhunt's publication of this interesting map, which shows which states are top/bottom/vers-heavy based on their online profiles (which is the kind of data I wish I could get my hands on - but Manhunt refuses to release it):
This falls right in line with my attempt to reconstruct Manhunt's databases in New York, Atlanta, and San Francisco (see here and here). Despite many gays complaining that cities are full of bottoms, research seems to indicate that this is empirically false.
I think part of this disconnect between the top-scarcity myth and reality is a healthy dose of bottom stigma, which fuels a devaluation of bottoms. Curious in Manhunt's data that there's a bunch of vers guys hanging out in the Northwest (Montana, South and North Dakota, and Wyoming) and Alaska. The only states that bottom-heavy in terms of Manhunt profiles are not geographically clustered: West Virginia, New Mexico, Wisconsin, Vermont, Rhode Island, and New Hampshire. How to explain the variation?
The Sword has conducted a quasi-scientific study of Craigslist ads to determine the perecentage of "top/bottom" (problematic language -- see comments later) advertisements in various cities' M4M sections. Obviously of interest is the variation from city to city, with Houston home to the highest perecentage of ads from guys looking to get fucked; and NYC home to the highest % of guys looking to fuck.
Now, this study is all sorts of FAIL. For one, the methodology is wholly unclear. Were they picking ads from guys who identified as bottoms? Or ads from guys who were just looking to get fucked? Or did that all get lumped into the same category? Obviously, versatile ads and ads not seeking anal sex are totally thrown out of the picture. But most importantly for me is that Craigslist advertisements are not the same as, say, Manhunt profiles. Sampling Craigslist ads tells you something about the sexual culture of those cities, but its problematic for a number of reasons: 1) Repeated posters (and you know if you use Craigslist that there are a few dozen people in each city who post multiple times a day, seven days a week); 2) The relationship between people who post and people who do NOT post is wholly unclear. For every ad you seen on Craigslist, there are at least a dozen people looking (and maaaaybe replying) but never posting themselves. So the lurkers will never get sampled in this kind of analysis.
Let's compare this data to the data I collected last year from Adam4Adam and Manhunt in San Francisco and New York City. In a sample of ALL Manhunt and Adam4Adam profiles in both cities, I found that NYC had slightly more tops than bottoms (on both sites, about 35% tops and 28% bottoms) while San Francisco's numbers were comparable but skewed a bit more towards bottoms (33% tops and 28% bottoms -- with many more vers guys). Compare here the charts for just Manhunt for both cities:
Sure, my data from MH and A4A has its own set of problems (see original posts linked above for more on that), but I think it's MUCH less susceptible to the kinds of gross errors / data biases that come with sampling Craigslist. In short, don't get your puds in a wad over this info. Take with a big, fat grain of salt!
In the spirit of my posts on racial diversity on Manhunt.net and Adam4Adam (see NYC; SF; Atlanta posts) -- and my recent post on positional identity on A4A and MH for San Francisco (see here) -- comes this post about the variation in tops, bottoms, and versatile-identified (what I call "positional identity") profiles on these websites for New York City!
As a recap, what I've done here is reconstructed the two website's database by doing repeated searches of profiles using narrow categories. For instance, if I want to know how many top-identified profiles exist among 18-21 year-olds, I did four searches (one for 18 y/o tops; 19 y/o tops; etc). Note that profiles ARE NOT people. And this technique for amassing data is somewhat vulnerable to human error. So take this data with a grain of salt. We need more research on this topic, to know how these identities are distributed in our communities. This is just a shot in the dark, really.
Also note that this data does not include anyone who did not identify as top/bottom/versatile. People who identified as "top/vers" were categorized as "top" here; "bottom/vers" also as "bottom." Without further ado, here's the data. There are 36,104 profiles from Manhunt documented here, and 41,738 from Adam4Adam.
Adam4Adam
As I did last time for race, I've gathered data on the distribution of positional identity categories by age group. I've dropped the last data point (58+) because: 1) it includes very few profiles; and 2) it is incredibly vulnerable to bias because of the number of people who put "99" or "69" as their age instead of their real age (a rather common practice).
The trends here are very similar to San Francisco. Like SF, there is a high percentage of bottoms in the 18-21 age group. Unlike SF, there's a similarly high percentage of versatile guys in that age bracket. This shifts quickly: by the next age group (22-25), bottoms have become the smallest group, and in the following age group (26-29), tops have become the largest group.
And here's the breakdown for all the profiles, overall. It's a slightly more even distribution than SF overall, with 35% of profiles ID'ing as vers; 36% as top; and around 29% as bottom.
Manhunt
Now let's turn to Manhunt. As I asked for SF, the important question: is there any obvious differences from Adam4Adam, as was found with racial diversity (A4A's profiles were consistently more racially diverse than Manhunt profiles)? While there were some minor differences in the SF data, the NYC data is pretty consistent. The trends are similar. Here's the data:
Overall, the data is also about identical:
With this data, I've presented further evidence for the case that there is some correlation between age and positional identity. Obviously, this relationship is unclear. There could be generational cohort differences, although I doubt this explanation. I think a more likely explanation is that these relational identities shift over time in gay men's lives. But we need to understand why. I presume many 18 year-olds identify as bottom because many men who want to have sex with them presume and want them to be bottoms. The converse may be true for 40 year-old guys. We obviously need some "real" social science research here to explain this variation with age.
I'll be back soon with the Atlanta data to complete the trifecta!
Okay this isn't a quote from his profile, but I just *had* to share this charming little note I got from this divorced 42 year old on Manhunt. Never talked to him before in my life. Sounds like a real winner!
Hey you profile says it all----you Do Gay SEX for a living------got that right new to guys Bi Male---amazes how you gay guys total LIFE priorities revolves around SEX---I've never talked to more SHALLOW ---SUPERIFICIAL---BULLSHITERS ---ASSHOLES- ----IN MY LIFE------ IN THE END----YOUR STUDY SHOWS---THE GAY LIFESTYLE----DOSENT EVEN "QUALIFY" AS A "LIFESTYLE" ITS TOTAL BULLSHIT. DOES THAT WORK FOR YOU?????
Sigh. I don't know why people think it's acceptable to treat people you've never met before like that. Clearly they weren't brought up right.
In the spirit of my posts on racial diversity on Manhunt.net and Adam4Adam (see NYC; SF; Atlanta posts), I'll be posting new data about the variation in tops, bottoms, and versatile-identified (what I call "positional identity") profiles on these two websites. I was holding onto this data, thinking perhaps I might do something more formal with it, but I decided in the in to share it here on my blog.
As a recap, what I've done here is reconstructed the two website's database by doing repeated searches of profiles using narrow categories. For instance, if I want to know how many top-identified profiles exist among 18-21 year-olds, I did four searches (one for 18 y/o tops; 19 y/o tops; etc). Note that profiles ARE NOT people. And this technique for amassing data is somewhat vulnerable to human error. So take this data with a grain of salt. We need more research on this topic, to know how these identities are distributed in our communities. This is just a shot in the dark, really.
Also note that this data does not include anyone who did not identify as top/bottom/versatile. People who identified as "top/vers" were categorized as "top" here; "bottom/vers" also as "bottom." Without further ado, here's the data. There are 3,755 profiles from Manhunt documented here, and 4,177 from Adam4Adam.
Adam4Adam
As I did last time for race, I've gathered data on the distribution of positional identity categories by age group. Note that the last data point (58+) includes very few profiles and is incredibly vulnerable to bias because of the number of people who put "99" or "69" as their age instead of their real age (a rather common practice).
But what you see here is quite fascinating, in any case. Note the very high percentage of bottoms among 18-21 year-olds, and the comparatively low percentage of tops. This disparity quickly reverses -- by the 22-25 year-old group, they're stastically dead-even, and then for every older age group there are more top-identified profiles than bottom-identified profiles. Curiously, the percentage of versatile profiles stays about the same over time.
And here's the breakdown for all the profiles, overall. 1/3 of profiles identify as top; 40% as versatile; and just 27% as bottom:
Manhunt
Now let's turn to Manhunt. The important question: is there any obvious differences from Adam4Adam, as was found with racial diversity (A4A's profiles were consistently more racially diverse than Manhunt profiles)? What we see here is interesting, compared to Adam4Adam. While there are similarly many more bottom-identified profiles in the youngest age bracket, it takes until the 34-37 year-old age group for there to be less bottom-identified profiles than top-identified profiles.
Strange. Why the "delay" in the shift? Manhunt profiles tend to be more "white" than those on Adam4Adam, though I'm not quite how that could impact the data. Is "bottom" a more stigmatized category for men of color? That would be an interesting question for more research! Here's the data:
Overall, however, the data looks about the same. Almost exactly 1/3 tops; 38.5% vers; and 28.4% bottom-identified profiles:
What does this tell us? Several things. First, it appears there's a correlation between age and positional identity. We obviously need some "real" social science research here to explain this variation with age. Second, it appears that there is a difference in this variation between Adam4Adam and Manhunt. While comparing this with the race data I've previously presented, it's tempting to link the two differences. However, we can't even say this is a correlation yet. We need "real" data.
Hope that invigorates your curiosity! I'll be back soon with Atlanta and NYC data.
xoxo
T
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